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| The one vaccine I was questioning was the varicella vaccine, but I am no longer questioning it. I was worried because people were telling me that the vaccine was inneffective, and that after a certain amount of time it became even less effective. I spoke to my daughters pediatrician about everything, and she totally changed my mind. We are definately having Mikayla vaccinated. She reitterated everything I already new about the evolution of viruses, and the fact that they are changing and becoming super viruses, and that the varicella virus has different strains and a lot of the strains are becoming very deadly, more so than the small number before. She told me that once Mikayla is vaccinated, she may get the chicken pox virus but it will be very mild. There is a booster for the vaccine. I am definately opting to have her vaccinated for this, where I was questioning it before. |
| Posted by on 02/25/2008 11:17 AM
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| It doesnt work 100%.Four of my kids had the vaccine and 3 of them got the chicken pox.I told yall my oldest boy 18 ,Mike got it when he was going to a catch up school and he got around a friends neice or nephew that had it.I made him go to school for like 3 r 4 days.He said he didnt feel good and he had a rash and I thought it was his eczema at first then I felt like the worst mom in the world when I saw him cvrd.He neglected to tell me that it was lil blisters lol.Then him being in the house around the other kids the 2 lil ones got it after him.My no 5 son never got it.So you tell me how well they work. |
| posted by Lexi on 02/25/2008 11:46 AM
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| The Dr. said she might very well get Chicken pox, but it will be very mild compared to what it could be. |
| posted by on 02/25/2008 12:06 PM
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It sounds to me like your pediatrician is inadvertently making a case as to why one should NOT give the varicella vaccine to a child. The fact that viruses and bacteria are becoming superbugs is due to over- and misuse of medication. We've all heard of the bacterium MRSA (methicillin resistant staphylococcus aureus). The reason this type of staph is resistant to methicillin (a type of penicillin) is because docs over prescribed antibiotics for trivial medical issues. The bacteria found ways to outsmart the antibiotic, and now other, more potent antibiotics must be given to get rid of MRSA. The same is happening with vaccinations pertaining to non-lethal viruses. Chicken pox is benign in children. It is rarely fatal. Most fatalaties in children who contract chicken pox are because they are either chronically ill, severely immunocompromised, nutritionally deficient, or premature (or unusually small for their age). Getting rid of the vaccine-targeted varicella will eventually make life better for the non-vaccine-targeted relatives (i.e. different strains). The human body has wisdom. Most of the time, an appropriately functioning immune system is fully capable of taking on these childhood diseases in which our society insists on vaccinating.
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| posted by Allison on 02/25/2008 08:13 PM
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| Yall may disagree w me but I think the only thing that we should definately be immunized for (big ppl too)is tetanus.I was immunized and I still had it all.I had the measles at 13.Mom said that I had had them 3xs as a child and nearly died.I was 18 and had the mumps on 1 side.I honestly do not know why they make you get them now.They think they are doing good but all I have seen are side effects that mame and kill children.Sometimes I often wonder(youll think im crazy)I honestly wonder if they send out different diseases in childrens to start epidemics in our cities.There was a case a few yrs ago that happened in Texas and a few other states where a set of ppl got the dtap aand they contracted flesh eating disease.Explain that 1???Sometimes I think it is for money.I think that if they didnt get us sick they fear that with all the cleaning agents antibacterial and all that that drs would lose money.I dont know maybe I am crazy. |
| posted by Lexi on 02/25/2008 09:11 PM
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| Thank you for your opinion, I am vaccinating her though. |
| posted by on 02/25/2008 09:12 PM
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| Thats it Barb, the gloves are coming off!!! LOL could you imagine being that hostile, lol. |
| posted by on 02/25/2008 09:13 PM
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| I seriously do not agree with holistic medicine, but that is just my opinion. I hope you know I am not downing anyone because they do believe in it. Viruses evolve, that is what everything does, people, animals, viruses, bacteria evolve to accomodate changing environment. That is why it has been impossible to cure AIDS, the strain is constantly changing, evolving, mutating if you will. Vaccines wipe out illnesses, for example smallpox, there is no more vaccination for it because of vaccinating, it was wiped out. I know I feel safer and know I am doing right by my daughter to have her vaccinated, but that is my choice as a parent. |
| posted by on 02/25/2008 09:21 PM
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| lol |
| posted by Lexi on 02/25/2008 09:41 PM
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| Yes, things do evolve in life. However, no sort of 'genetic' disease (such as autism), or any virus or bacteria evolve at the alarmingly rapid pace in which they have in the last 50 years. Any geneticists, microbiologist, immunologist, or virologist will confirm this. Typically evolution of this sort takes hundreds, thousands, or millions of years. These 'things' are evolving at such a rapid pace due to human intervention. I'm not saying that vaccines do not eliminate certain diseases (such as small pox), but at what cost??? Are we creating monsters that we will not be able to control in the future? |
| posted by Allison on 02/25/2008 09:46 PM
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| Autism is not evolving, it just so happens that the spectrum for diagnosing has gotten larger. Autism is genetic, and not caused by vaccinating. |
| posted by on 02/26/2008 09:02 AM
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| In the last fifty years, people who are diagnosed with autism have increased because they are now diagnosing people with autism who would never before have been diagnosed. There are more types and severities of autism being recognized where as before it was Autism...Now there is aspbergers. People who could function in mainstream would never have been diagnosed. Our criteria for diagnosis has been broadened. People look to blame anything and everything when something is wrong with their child. Someone in a previous post on the said something that still stays in my mind. To say vaccinating brings on autism is like saying college brings on schitzophrenia (sp.?) It just happens to show signs at that age and time and one has no connection to the other. |
| posted by on 02/26/2008 09:08 AM
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| Hmmm im schizto!!! lol |
| posted by Lexi on 02/26/2008 10:32 AM
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| I agree with vaccinating, i do have a cousin that after being vaccinated i guess it went bad or whatever he is mentally retarded and confined to either bed or a wheel chair and needs around the clock care. i think he is older than i am he is in his mid to late 30's but he was perfectly fine when we were kids i believe it happened when he was around 4 or 5. it breaks my heart that things like that can happen and i know it is a 1 in million thing but hey that 1 hit close to home. i get scared when i take in my daughter for her shots but how these viruses are now a days it is worse. being from Mexico i have the scar from the small pox shot, my husband thinks it's cute. he is older than i am but doesn't have one. i told him it's because it was gone from the US before other countries. too bad we have to live in a world where you hope your simple cold isn't pneumonia or meningitis it is scary. i have never in my life had a flu shot and thank god have never gotten the flu... but should my kids get the shot? i ponder that one |
| posted by Kristhal on 02/26/2008 03:00 PM
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Not that I want to rehash the autism/vaccine/genetic debate, but I just want to share an important source as to where I get my information. Even if Asperger's is added to the autism spectrum, it still does not account for the numbers of these diseases we are seeing these days.
I read a report on safety and vaccinations. Congressman David Weldon (R-Fla.), M.D. asked Russell L. Blaylock, M.D. (a board certified neurosurgeon) to read the report because in his (Dr. Weldon's) estimation, the report clearly proved that vaccines were unsafe. The congressman/doctor found out that the report was given to the CDC and it stated that the vaccines were safe and there was no correlation with abnormal neural development in those receving the vaccines. The congressman/doctor had a problem with this so he got a copy of the report and gave it to Dr. Blaylock to study. It literally required a Freedom of Information lawsuit to get the report to Dr. Blaylock because the participants in the meeting did not want the information to get out to the general public.
The official title of the meeting was the "Scientific Review of Vaccine Safety The Datalink Information." This conference assembled 51 scientists and physicians of which five represented vaccine manufacturers (Smith Kline Beecham, Merck, Wyeth, North American Vaccine and Aventis Pasteur).
The report is over 200 pages long. However, one important part relating to autism and genetics is the following:
"Several of the participants [of the meeting] tried to imply autism was a genetic disorder and therefore could have nothing to do with vaccines. On page 24, Dr. William Weil, a pediatrician representing the Committee on Environmental Health of the American Academy of Pediatrics put that to rest with this comment, "We don't see that kind of genetic change in 30 years."
In other words, how can we suddenly see a 300 percent increase in a genetically related disorder over such a short period?"
He continued, "It is also known that there are two forms of autism, one that is apparent at birth (genetic) and one that develops later in childhood (acquired). The former (apparent at birth) has not changed in incidence since statistics have been kept. The other (develops later in childhod) is epidemic."
Now, back to the chicken pox vaccine. I'm going to go off on a personal tangent first, but stay with me; I'll get back to the vaccine.
I would like to say for the record that I believe in integrative medicine. This is combining natural modalities with medical intervention. For example, this past weekend, my son began 'wheezing' every time he took a breath in (the actual term for the noise is stridor). We live in Phoenix, which doesn't have the best air quality, have a shedding dog, and a backyard that is full of dirt because we have not landscaped it yet. My son began crawling a couple of weeks ago. Being so close to the ground he could be breathing in a number of things that could cause his respiratory system to become inflamed; or, God forbid, he could have swallowed a small piece of paper. His 'wheezing' got worse as the night went on. Now, I did not take out my ceremonious drum, do a dance around him and pray to a totum pole that he stop wheezing. Instead, I took him to the ER where he was given an oral dose of steroids for inflammation. He had a clear xray and absolutely no other symptoms, but somehow the ER doc diagnosed him with croup. I knew he did not have croup because the hallmark sign of croup is a barking cough (which he did not have). The steroids kept him from wheezing the rest of the night. The next day the wheezing returned. This time I gave him probiotics and fish oil in his baby food, and an anti-inflammatory respiratory herbal formula. I also kept a humidifier running with eucalyptus oil in it. The wheezing went away after a day and a half and hasn't returned.
The point of this story is to know when to intervene medically, and know when to trust the body and stay on the natural side. The main dictum in medicine is "First Do No Harm". I believe that when you vaccinate perfectly healthy people that this dictum is being broken. Like I stated in an earlier reply, chicken pox is a benign disease for children where there are rarely fatalities.
Most pediatricians are always going to steer parents to vaccinate because they are following standard operating procedures. The next time you go to your pediatrician, ask him/her to list every ingredient in the vaccine that is about to be given to your child and what effect these ingredients may have on his/her body. I would bet most pediatricians would not be able to do either.
On page 24, Dr. William Weil, a pediatrician representing the Committee on Environmental Health of the American Academy of Pediatrics |
| posted by Allison on 02/26/2008 04:10 PM
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| Okay explain to me please what is probiotics.Explain to me please, fishoil.I know 1 thing its good for.Chemical imbalance in the brain. |
| posted by Lexi on 02/26/2008 08:07 PM
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Probiotics are 'healthy' bacteria that our body need to fight off illnesses. They typically reside in the intestinal tract, and in mucous membranes. Our mucous membranes are one of the first lines of defense against microbes (viruses, bacteria, yeast, etc...). Probiotics improve digestion of food and absorption of vitamins, stimulate the body's natural defense mechanism (the immune system), and help make vitamins needed by the body.
Fish oils contain omega 3 and omega 6 essential fatty acids. In particular DHA and EPA. Fish oil has a multitude of benefits. Here are a few: 1)decrease pain and inflammation 2)improve cardiovascular health 3)protect from stroke and heart attack 4)better brain function and higher intelligence 5)less depression and psychosis 6)
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| posted by Allison on 02/26/2008 10:13 PM
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sorry...
6)lowers incidence of childhood disorders (ADD, ADHD, dyslexia, compulsive disorders, etc... 7)reduces breast, colon and prostate cancer.
For a complete picture of the benefits of fish oil, google it because I can't do it justice here. If you're going to take fish oil make sure it's from a reputable company because cheaper versions can contain mercury. |
| posted by Allison on 02/26/2008 10:17 PM
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| There are always counter articles on everything, but there is no proven or known link, for every article that says that vaccinating causes autism, there are ten others that say it absolutely does not. I read up about this stuff alot. I do all of my research on vaccinations and what the best choice for my daughter is. I also read an article that stated while the number of people vaccinating their kids in England has significantly dropped, the number of diagnosed reported cases of Autism has increased. So now what do we blame it on? |
| posted by on 02/26/2008 10:19 PM
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| Ty Allison.I also went to Wikipedia and read on it; that is too cool.Tempeh, Miso ,soy. |
| posted by Lexi on 02/26/2008 10:25 PM
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| The other thing I wanted to add in response is my daughters pediatrician is a very good friend of mine, and is not following protocol in telling me to vaccinate, as a matter of fact she has never told me to do anything, she has answered every question, and discussed everything I have read that I have brought up to her. We have sat down and had many conversations about all of this, and she has kids of her own who are all vaccinated. |
| posted by on 02/26/2008 10:26 PM
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| There are probably 90 million more articles on pro-vaccination than those against it; a lot of them sponsored by the pharmaceutical company. Rarely will one read a report such as the one I referenced because it took a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit to be obtained. I don't know a lot of docs who have the time to get into this sort of litigation to find out what happens in these "confidential meetings". In other words, there are definitely doctors, scientists and pharmaceutical big wigs who will do what they can to keep this type of information confidential. I just ask that if a statement is going to made regarding anything medical that it be backed by a reputable resource. The key word here is reputable. |
| posted by Allison on 02/26/2008 11:30 PM
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| Well, I happen to find all of the sources I utilise to be quite reputable. You have your beliefs on this, and I do not agree with them, I respect your decision not to vaccinate your kids, mine will be vaccinated. I just have to ask you, if one of your kids got sick, God forbid, with one of these oh so out there viruses or illnesses that you chose not to vaccinate against, then what? Would your spin on the whole thing change? The chances of a childing becoming deathly ill or severly impaired because of vaccinating are slim to none, while the chances of contracting some of these illnesses is higher than that. |
| posted by on 02/27/2008 08:30 AM
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| utilize? |
| posted by Lexi on 02/27/2008 09:31 AM
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| Im sorry Daun; I couldnt resist!Well like I said,I honestly think that the only one that I got for Lexi was the DT.I was made cause they wouldnt seperate the 2.She got sick w the scarlentena virus after being vaccinated 2 weeks later.4 more ppl's children all got the same virus after their kids got their shots also a couple of weeks after Lexi got hers.This is the summer.Ima thinking that the pharm. company put the virus in the shots so that the drs wouldnt go hungry during the summer months or lose that Bahama vacation that they so deserve! The fater we started school,I had about 10 moms talking in the breezeway about how they had to get their kids shots and their kids got a really bad rash w the tummy flu during the summer.How friggin ironic is that??? |
| posted by Lexi on 02/27/2008 09:38 AM
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| Oh dear God I cant type!!! Mad is the word and tetnus was the subject.Yes tetnus is the only thing that I worry about.That is the most important cause children play outside w God only knows with what. |
| posted by Lexi on 02/27/2008 09:40 AM
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| LOL!! Thanks Barb for spell checking, here in Pennsyltucky, our computers don't have dat der spell checkin feature, lol. |
| posted by on 02/27/2008 12:51 PM
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| For illnesses such as chicken pox, whooping cough (pertussis), measles, mumps, and rubella, I would follow medical protocol which is to keep my child comfortable, deal with any fever, keep him hydrated and well rested. There are no specific treatments for these diseases because the body is fully capable of letting them run their course and then getting rid of them. Diphtheria is extremely uncommon in the US, but the course of action here would be antibiotics. Haemophilus influenzae also requires antibiotics as treatment. The only way my child could ever contract Hep B is if I had it (which I do not) or if he exchanges blood or fluids with someone who has it. At 7 months, I don't think these exchanges are going to happen. Now with any illness a child gets (even a sinus infection or plain old fashion cold), the big thing that everyone worries about is meningitis. As I stated before, I am not anti-medical intervention. I write pharmaceutical prescriptions in my practice when it is appropriate. We all know that none of these vaccines work 100%. So if your child contracted one of these diseases in which she is vaccinated for, you would probably treat her in the manner I discussed above because this is how all medical professionals would treat these diseases. I just believe that prevention is the best first line of defense. I breastfeed my child and feed him organic baby food in which I add liquid children's vitamins, probiotics and fish oil. His dad and I eat very well, exercise and do not smoke, so we are promoting a very healthy lifestyle. We don't kid ourselves about our child becoming ill. Anytime a new virus or bacteria enters his system he's probably going to get some sort of illness because his immune system has to learn how to function appropriately. As I mentioned in an earlier comment, he's already had respiratory inflammation in which he began wheezing, and he's had 2 colds since he's been born. He knocked all these things out with no problem. |
| posted by Allison on 02/27/2008 02:19 PM
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| Ultimately, every parent has to do what is right for their child, and their family, and it is obvious we have all done research here, and are all doing what we think is best, you won't get me to change my opinion nor will I get you to change yours. I respect your info, and your choice. |
| posted by on 02/27/2008 03:30 PM
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| Fair enough. I respect your opinion as well. I hope when we have these exchanges no offense is ever taken. I think the pro vs. con on any issue helps other moms make decisions regarding their children. Info is disseminated here that may not be found else where. I gotta tell ya DJM, you have a knack for coming up with hot topics. It makes being a stay at home mom more interesting. : ) |
| posted by Allison on 02/27/2008 03:37 PM
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| LOL, thanks, no offense taken at all. |
| posted by on 02/27/2008 03:46 PM
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| I know Daun, but did you see my typing in that post?Gawd and I dont drink either!!!Youd think that I was illiterate or sumthin!Actually ,I had Lexi in my lap screaming at me for another snack lol.But see me giving you a hard time, God punished me and made me have like 10 typos lol!!!! |
| posted by Lexi on 02/28/2008 10:00 AM
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| I really appreciate this conversation and topic. My 18 month old had his shots through 12 months. I then made the decision, he would not have anymore. He had such a bad reaction to the HIB shot that I have done some research on vaccines, I am not finished yet, so I will hold my tongue until I am better equipped. I will say this though. I do not believe that our children need the amount of shots they are given and I really don't believe any of them should be mixes, MMR for example. I have listened to talk shows, read articles, etc and believe their is a link between vaccines and autism as well as other illnesses... |
| posted by Danielle on 03/02/2008 09:54 AM
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I think the most important thing we need to learn from this topic is to LISTEN to what mother's are reporting about their children and to NOT DISCOUNT THEM because you afford yourself that indulgent luxury after your child made it through fine...how arrogant! Especially knowing that the history of vaccinations has been far from perfect. They have caused death, serious illnesses such as polio and bowl obstructions(roto virus), rashes, and a long list of other side effects. Roto Virus and Polio were both pulled off the market because of their serious side effects. The flu shot has caused paralysis in adults and dementia to name the serious of side effects.. In 1998 The hep B vaccine caused multiple sclerosis and was pulled off the market in France.
Did you also know that their is a test your child can take to determine whether or not they actually NEED a booster shot? I bet you never got it. It is called a Titer.
Medical science is not black and white and neither is this issue. If you have any concerns about vaccinating your child you should listen to your gut-then go and buy: What your doctor may not tell you about children's vaccinations-it is written by a pediatrician!!! You do not need to be a medical doctor to understand the very clear concerns outlined in this book. It is all based on facts and is designed to educate not persuade.
Mother's have good instincts and should learn to listen to them. Don't be bullied or persuaded by your pediatrician-of course they are going to sell the idea they have an entire business built around regular doctor's visits for vaccinations. Which by the way is a lot easier to believe if you were one of the lucky ones.
*My brother-n-law is a doctor and does not have his kids vaccinated. Food for thought!! He says he would never get a Flu vaccination!!
Opinions are opinions but you can't ignore the facts.
I think we are in a period of limbo-there needs to be change but if the drug companies admit it they would have to support their reason for change which would mean prevailing their research and we all know what that would mean. LARGE lawsuits!! To ignore that the large amount of vaccinations we inject into our children directly puts BILLIONS of dollars into the pockets of the big drug companies would be careless!!
Oh yeah- Somebody made a reference to how there was no cure for aids....
You really have no idea have powerful the pharmacutical companies are do you? I laughed out loud when I read that!!
Maybe that is where you should start focusing your "research". You would probably change your mind.
I would also like to know how you think your child will catch Hep B if you have already been tested and you nor your husband has it? Why are we vaccinating for it?? Try to be a little more humble in your examination of this topic-just because your kid is fine (and thank godness for you) there are plenty more that aren't and we need to get to the bottom of it. Parents need to continue to fight the battle until we have clear answers!
Well that's all for now ladies-it's been fun!
posted on 03/03/2008 03:47 PM by Beth Armstrong
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| posted by Beth on 03/03/2008 05:29 PM
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| Thanks Beth. I did plenty og research, have friends in pharmaceuticals, and friends who are doctors, as well as friends who are just parents. How dare you assume that because an opinion doesn't match yours, it is wrong. |
| posted by on 03/03/2008 06:49 PM
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I am going to repost what I posted earlier in this topic:
Ultimately, every parent has to do what is right for their child, and their family, and it is obvious we have all done research here, and are all doing what we think is best, you won't get me to change my opinion nor will I get you to change yours. I respect your info, and your choice.
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| posted by on 03/03/2008 07:10 PM
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Why wouldn't you change your mind? Do you claim to have all the evidence there is to have on the topic?
If I need to change my mind I will and not think twice about it.
I don't know everything there is to know today nor will I tomorrow. Give me what you have so I can better equip myself and my family. I don't care about being right or "respected" in my views or I would have joined a political chat room. I want to talk to mothers who are going through the same things and can maybe suggest a book or an article. If you have the info to change my mind then by all means bring it!! I have everything you have mentioned and then some and am not convinced. I also have a child that has suffered a rare illness after being vaccinated that nobody has been able to explain. So my hunt for answers will not stop because your email stops. It is a decision I question every day of my life!!
I want info and more of it- so feel free to keep it coming because you can't give me too much!
The best decision is an educated one. I wouldn't have joined this website if I wasn't going to listen to what others had to say. And my mind is always open for new info.
Maybe you just like to be heard and that is your perrogative if so.
Allison I would like to see you do a section on Pro-biotics. You obviously know what you are talking about and I think mothers need more info about this wonderful supplement. It was life changing for me and my family!!
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| posted by Beth on 03/03/2008 11:34 PM
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Beth, apparently you are looking for more than mind changing, and I am not falling into it. I am not looking to change anyones mind, I am doing what works best for my my family based on the reasearch, yeas, I said research, that I have done. I went to college, I was a bio major, I read medical reports, my sister works for a major Pharmac. company in NJ, as does my father. Two of my cousins are doctors, one internal medicine, the other is an ob/gyn. My daughters ped. is one of my closest friends. I think I am pretty well informed. There is information out there that is for and against vaccinating, yet there are much less that say vaccinating is bad, and there is a slim to none chance of your child becoming seriously ill from vaccinating. You are more than welcome to state your feelings/opinions on this, as is everyone in this room, but respectfully. As far as why I will not change my thoughts on the matter....I am simply looking to put all info out there, like Allison had said. We state our sides, it is up to each individual parent to do for their kids what they think is best, and just because it does not match up with what you are laying down as law, well that is too bad.
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| posted by on 03/04/2008 08:23 AM
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If you have the info to change my mind then by all means bring it!!
ou are looking to get into some sort of pissing match, and I am not falling into this one, Have a nice day. |
| posted by on 03/04/2008 08:25 AM
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Danielle- The book is called What your doctor may not tell you about children's vaccinations by Stephanie Cave M.D.
I wish I would have known about this book sooner. The fact that my youngest has already been vaccinated twice for Hep B really frustrates me!
I think Lexi is really on to something in what she has witnessed in her own family- it is hard not to listen to a mother of five!! Hats off to you girl!
In a reply to DJM: People look to blame anything and everything when something is wrong with their child. Someone in a previous post on the said something that still stays in my mind. To say vaccinating brings on autism is like saying college brings on schitzophrenia (sp.?) It just happens to show signs at that age and time and one has no connection to the other....which is an opinion.
FACT: On the Oprah Winfrey show one of the biggest platforms known to man kind the CDC (Center for Disease COntrol) said and I quote: "WE SIMPLY DO NOT know what causes MOST forms of autism."
I guess you know more than they do, maybe you should contact them and let them know you have solved the problem.
By the way DJM- you make it a pissing match when you so arrogantly state how sure you are that you have all the answers. If you are so sure you are right then quit replying!! THere are plenty of other women still looking for more information. You've figured it out so move on! |
| posted by Beth on 03/04/2008 10:51 AM
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| Beth, why are you so nasty? I am not sorry for believing what I believe, nor did I ever presume to know everything, i know what I know, you know what you know and do not even begin to tell me to stop posting. There are plenty of people in this room who do not agree with eachothers views. Lexi and I happen to be on opposite sides of the fence yet we are friends, I do not agree with Allison, nor does she agree with my views, yet there is no problem there. It is the way people go about presenting their views, and that is all you are presenting as well, is your view. You, my dear are acting as though you know for a fact it is vaccinating that causes all of these problems, and I am sorry, but you do not. There is a possiblity of adverse reactions with vaccinating, sure, and I have read that. I have also looked into the statistics, and as far as I am concerned the benifits far outweigh the risks. I am not going to stop posting or replying, and that is a very gratuitous request. |
| posted by on 03/04/2008 11:19 AM
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| Well I do not pretend to know everything about vaccines but I do know what has happened to all my children after having them.I know that we are all made up of genetic material and some ppl have bad immune systems.I just happen to be 1 of those ppl and I just so happened to pass it along to my kids.My son Mike will Im so sorry to say always have a skin disease and a blood disorder thx to me.My daughter Alexis will also always have it all her life.My daughter Kalei however like myself will be a carrier and pass it along to her children like I did the pedi informed me.They know that the children should have immunizations but they forget to mention what the side effects are for children like mine and several other ppls out there.We are called statistics! I think right now because of what happened to my kids think that the only thing that kids need to be immunized against is tetanus.That is the most dangerous thing that I can see in my kids future right now.Has anyone ever considered the fact that pharma companies make new drugs everyday and they need a way to test them on the human race and the only way to do that is to send out new germs into our society.How would you reach a bunch of ppl in a short time???My answer is children!But thats just my opinion. |
| posted by Lexi on 03/04/2008 01:02 PM
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I’m going to explain what probiotics are, why they are so important and then connect them to vaccines.
Most of the info I’m going to give on probiotics comes from JM Mercola, MD and can be found at mercola.com.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, probiotics are healthy bacteria that live in the gastrointestinal tract. The word probiotic is a Greek word meaning ‘for life’. Probiotics are found naturally in fermented foods (yogurt, sauerkraut, curd, etc…).
Here are some important statistics:
*About 80% of your immune system resides in your gastrointestinal tract
*About one hundred trillion bacteria live inside you — more than TEN TIMES the number of cells you have in your entire body
*Some of these bacteria are referred to as "good" and some as "bad"
*The ideal balance between them is 85% good and 15% bad
*This ratio between the "good" bacteria and the "bad" bacteria becomes one of the critical factors determining your optimal health
Now, let’s go back a little:
*Before birth, the GI tract is sterile
*The moment after birth, colonization of bacteria begins in the gut
*The first bacteria to settle in are the immune-building ones from breast milk, increasing levels of health and favoring survival
*Poor dietary choices and other lifestyle choices cause the wrong bacteria to flourish in the gut
*Helpful bacteria (probiotics) prevent the growth of undesirable ones by not allowing the bad bacteria to attach to the gut mucosa (lining)
Now, let’s bring vaccines back into the story. The info here is from www.russellblaylockmd.com. Dr. Blaylock is a neuroscientist who does research studies on the effects of different substances on the brain.
As we all know, the process of vaccination usually requires repeated injections of the vaccine over a set period of time. This triggers an immune response by the body, similar to that occurring with natural infections, except for one major difference: ALMOST NONE OF THESE DISEASES ENTER THE BODY BY INJECTION. Most enter by way of the MUCOUS MEMBRANES of the nose, mouth, pulmonary passages or GI tract. The membranes lining these passages contain a DIFFERENT immune system than activated by direct injection. This system is called the IgA (immunoglobulin A) immune system.
It is the FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE and helps reduce the need for intense activation of the BODY'S immune system. Often, the IgA system can completely head off an attack. The point being that INJECTING ORGANISMS TO INDUCE IMMUNITY IS ABNORMAL.
Now, back to probiotics. Dr’s Chermesh and Eliakim at Rambam Medical Center did a published research study entitled ‘Probiotics and the gastrointestinal tract: where are we in 2005?’ Their research proved that probiotics stimulate IgA production, the first line of defense against disease.
So, this is why probiotics are so important for everyone, but especially in our children who are meeting new, disease-causing agents for the first time. The more ammo we give them in the way of things like probiotics, vitamins, sound nutrition, sanitary living conditions, etc...the better chance they have of licking these childhood diseases without severe complications.
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| posted by Allison on 03/04/2008 08:36 PM
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| Now, Allison, let me ask you, what would the benefits of this be if I started this with Mikayla, Not saying I am going to stop vaccinating her, because that I will not do....Plus what are the risks because my daughter is allergic to a lot of things, well not a lot but enough. |
| posted by on 03/04/2008 08:55 PM
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| The benefits are as I listed above...overall increased immunity at the level of the mucous membranes where diseases usually invade the body. As far as I know, I've never heard of an adverse reaction to probiotics. The only 2 that MAY occur (but I've never seen a case or heard of one) would be flatulence and constipation. I give Rocco Ultra Flora Plus DF by Metagenics. You can find it online, but it must be refrigerated. I put 1/8th of a teaspoon in his baby food twice a day. Do not rely on yogurt to get your daily dose of probiotics. Yogurt in the US contains way too much sugar. Sugar feeds bad bacteria, so you'd actually be cancelling out the benefits of the probiotics. A healthy GI tract is not only important as far as increasing immunity, but it must be healthy to digest food properly. This is important because proper digestion ensures that the body is getting sufficient amount of vitamins and minerals. Every single biochemical reaction in the body requires a vitamin or mineral, or an enzyme which is made from vitamins and minerals. These proper biochemical reactions also help us to maintain health. Hope this helps a bit. |
| posted by Allison on 03/04/2008 09:20 PM
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| Thanks, I am willing to try things, I don't know how long it will last but I will try it, lol. I usually buy Greek yogurt and it is usually plain, I mix in fresh fruit for her, is that better or is it the same thing? |
| posted by on 03/04/2008 09:52 PM
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| Just check out the sugar content of the yogurt. Yogurt in other countries does not contain extra sugar like it does here in the US. The probiotic I put in Rocco's food is a powder; it can't even be tasted. When I take it, I take 1/4th of a teaspoon, put it right on my tongue & down it with water. It kind of has a sweet taste to it. But as I said, added to food, it can't be tasted. I guess added to yogurt (whether it contains a lot of sugar or not) is better than nothing. Yogurt will always have sugar in it because it is made from milk (lactose is a type if sugar). Just make sure there's not a crazy amount of sugar in the yogurt. |
| posted by Allison on 03/04/2008 10:36 PM
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Lexi- that is my number one point! We need to listen to each other more and follow our instincts. Your story makes me so sad because that is one thing I have recently learned is there are definately predispositions to be looking for and chances are if one of your children has a reaction so will the others that follow. Sometimes it may be even more severe. That is why we are empowering each other with websites like these to be more confident about asking those hard questions to our pediatricians. And to gather as much infomation as we can. I think we generally over trust our medical professionals but they are people to and do make mistakes. I don't think any one is disagreeing that vaccinations have done good things but what we are disagreeing on is the acknowledgment that times are changing and so is their use....to the detriment of children.
Medicine and pharma are both "For Profit" businesses. It is one of the biggest issues in over all health care right now! Ask Michael Moore he he.
It was very unsettling to hear a good friend of ours who is a CEO of a hospital tell us that they steer away from recruiting certain types of doctors because the profit margin wasn't enough in the procedures they were performing. He said you make more money off of .....I remember thinking to myself-that sounds a little sleezy!
Anyway, back to solutions(I don't want to beat a dead horse!): Probiotics-for my son was life changing. We were dealing with chronic illness and fevers we had reluctantly gone through two rounds of antibiotics and were still running fevers and battling the gushing green runny nose....which everyone knows leads to ear infections. I called a tree hugging (hollistic) friend of mine who said: take him off milk (he is probably allergic to it as are most kids- hence the chronic runny nose) and give him probiotics- his immune system is out of whack from the illness and the antibiotics. TWO days later NO runny nose and he has not had a fever since.
I couldn't help but to wonder how many parents are in that same boat and ended up in the hospital to get tonsils out or to get tubes in their kids ears. I was so scared that was going to be us I was willing to try any alternative and lucky for us it worked!! It gave my son one good diarhea the next day after we strated it but that was it. Probably flushing out all the gunk.
The great and exciting thing about Pro-biotics like Allison said is it supports your own immune system in fighting it's own battles and that is kind of cool to me!
They don't work for everything but probably for the things we battle the most...the common cold etc.
P.s. We also eat as organic as we can afford-definatly egg, milk, soy and most meats with an occasional slip up in the chicken nugget department:-) |
| posted by Beth on 03/05/2008 11:04 AM
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I am SOOOO not trying to rehash the autism debate again, but this sort of goes along with starting with the basics for your baby's health (vitamins, good nutrition, etc...
Anyway, Jenny McCarthy was on the Today Show this morning and said something interesting. She said that even though her organization, Talk About Curing Autism (TACA), travels all around the country and has thousands of children who have had their autism reversed, no one from the CDC, FDA, or American Academy of Pediatrics has once asked what this organization is (or is not) doing to reverse the symptoms of autism. She went on to talk about the power of vitamins and a healthy diet as two of the most important tools in preventing/reversing symptoms of autism and NOT ONE of these high ranking organizations has ever asked what TACA is doing to get positive results. (The web site goes on to talk about vaccinations, but I'll let you all visit it yourself.)
However, I did find one important fact on the site that I felt was very apropo because it has been at the center of of our autism spectrum debates. It is as follows:
One in every 150 children born in the U.S. have been diagnosed with autism.
(NOTE: This number does NOT include: PDD, Aspergers and other spectrum disorders. These statistics are endorsed by the CDC, American Academy of Pediatrics, and other federal organizations.)
www.talkaboutcuringautism.org
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| posted by Allison on 03/05/2008 02:03 PM
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| Thanks Allison, I am going to read that. I have Read Jenny McCarthy's books and I saw her on Oprah. There are certain things to avoid in autistic childs diet as well, that lessen the severity of autism, I believe she said milk products should be avoided at all costs. |
| posted by on 03/05/2008 02:11 PM
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| I'd like to add that Beth makes a good point about using probiotics, ESPECIALLY after a course of antibiotics. As I mentioned earlier, probiotics means 'for life', anti-biotics means 'destroys life'. Most commonly destroying bacteria. However, the thing is that antibiotics kill ALL bacteria; the good and the bad. So if your child is given a course of antibiotics (and make sure the doctor knows your child has a bacterial infection because antibiotics do not work on viruses), be sure to supplement with probiotics. |
| posted by Allison on 03/05/2008 02:22 PM
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| One more thing...There are a lot of women out there who go through many courses of antibiotics for UTI's and end up with yeast infections. The reason for this is because the antibiotic killed the good bacteria that normally keeps the naturally occuring vaginal yeast in check. Get rid of the good bacteria and the yeast proliferates in the vagina. |
| posted by Allison on 03/05/2008 02:31 PM
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So, I have been lerking in the shadows on this one. My family has decided that vaccinating is not right for us. I have researched it on many sites, books, and spoken to people pro vs. con. My husband and i decided it didn't fit with our beliefs. That being said, it is an individual choice. YOU have to make the decision that works for your family. If you can't sleep at night wondering what disease your child may come into contact with or may not come into contact with, then by all means get vaccinated. WE are all mothers here, we need to be supportive of each other, their are already to many people telling us what we do is wrong, and we as women second guess everything we do. Parenting and supporting other parents isn't about making everyone conform to your beliefs, it is about pointing out certain things so that we can all make informed decisions when we need to. That is all I ask of my patients is to make an informed decision. It doesn't have to be the same as mine would be, it just needs to be informed. I am also going to include a link. It is interesting with the vaccine talk. It is about a case where the government settled with family over vaccinations and autism.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2008/03/07/lkl.autism.vaccine.long.cnn
Shanna |
| posted by Shanna on 03/08/2008 07:30 PM
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I saw the case in which Shanna is referring to on Larry King. I've got to admit that I was a little surprised that all of the guests (2 pediatricians and the parents) were still pro-vaccination even though the courts conceded the vaccinations caused the little girl's autism (or autism-like symptoms). There is a group on this site called 'Parents Who Choose NOT to Vaccinate. I found a post on this site which explains the case (some of it is a little medical), and the author makes some pretty good points. I've cut and pasted the article for anyone interested in reading it. References are at the end of the article, and I believe it was posted at the end of February before the CNN show aired. Also, keep in mind that the government is focusing on mercury as a causative agent in this case. Nothing is mentioned of the other ingredients in the vaccines.
Government Concedes Vaccine-Autism Case in Federal Court - Now What?
After years of insisting there is no evidence to link vaccines with the onset of autism spectrum disorder (ASD), the US government has quietly conceded a vaccine-autism case in the Court of Federal Claims.
The unprecedented concession was filed on November 9, and sealed to protect the plaintiff's identify. It was obtained through individuals unrelated to the case.
The claim, one of 4,900 autism cases currently pending in Federal "Vaccine Court," was conceded by US Assistant Attorney General Peter Keisler and other Justice Department officials, on behalf of the Department of Health and Human Services, the "defendant" in all Vaccine Court cases.
The child's claim against the government -- that mercury-containing vaccines were the cause of her autism -- was supposed to be one of three "test cases" for the thimerosal-autism theory currently under consideration by a three-member panel of Special Masters, the presiding justices in Federal Claims Court.
Keisler wrote that medical personnel at the HHS Division of Vaccine Injury Compensation (DVIC) had reviewed the case and "concluded that compensation is appropriate."
The doctors conceded that the child was healthy and developing normally until her 18-month well-baby visit, when she received vaccinations against nine different diseases all at once (two contained thimerosal).
Days later, the girl began spiraling downward into a cascade of illnesses and setbacks that, within months, presented as symptoms of autism, including: No response to verbal direction; loss of language skills; no eye contact; loss of "relatedness;" insomnia; incessant screaming; arching; and "watching the florescent lights repeatedly during examination."
Seven months after vaccination, the patient was diagnosed by Dr. Andrew Zimmerman, a leading neurologist at the Kennedy Krieger Children's Hospital Neurology Clinic, with "regressive encephalopathy (brain disease) with features consistent with autistic spectrum disorder, following normal development."
The girl also met the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders (DSM-IV) official criteria for autism.
In its written concession, the government said the child had a pre-existing mitochondrial disorder that was "aggravated" by her shots, and which ultimately resulted in an ASD diagnosis.
"The vaccinations received on July 19, 2000, significantly aggravated an underlying mitochondrial disorder," the concession says, "which predisposed her to deficits in cellular energy metabolism, and manifested as a regressive encephalopathy with features of ASD."
This statement is good news for the girl and her family, who will now be compensated for the lifetime of care she will require. But its implications for the larger vaccine-autism debate, and for public health policy in general, are not as certain.
In fact, the government's concession seems to raise more questions than it answers.
1) Is there a connection between vaccines, mitochondrial disorders and a diagnosis of autism, at least in some cases?
Mitochondria, you may recall from biology class, are the little powerhouses within cells that convert food into electrical energy, partly through a complex process called "oxidative phosphorylation." If this process is impaired, mitochondrial disorder will ensue.
The child in this case had several markers for Mt disease, which was confirmed by muscle biopsy. Mt disease is often marked by lethargy, poor muscle tone, poor food digestion and bowel problems, something found in many children diagnosed with autism.
But mitochondrial disorders are rare in the general population, affecting some 2-per-10,000 people (or just 0.2%). So with 4,900 cases filed in Vaccine Court, this case should be the one and only, extremely rare instance of Mt disease in all the autism proceedings.
But it is not.
Mitochondrial disorders are now thought to be the most common disease associated with ASD. Some journal articles and other analyses have estimated that 10% to 20% of all autism cases may involve mitochondrial disorders, which would make them one thousand times more common among people with ASD than the general population.
Another article, published in the Journal of Child Neurology and co-authored by Dr. Zimmerman, showed that 38% of Kennedy Krieger Institute autism patients studied had one marker for impaired oxidative phosphorylation, and 47% had a second marker.
The authors -- who reported on a case-study of the same autism claim conceded in Vaccine Court -- noted that "children who have (mitochondrial-related) dysfunctional cellular energy metabolism might be more prone to undergo autistic regression between 18 and 30 months of age if they also have infections or immunizations at the same time."
An interesting aspect of Mt disease in autism is that, with ASD, the mitochondrial disease seems to be milder than in "classic" cases of Mt disorder. In fact, classic Mt disease is almost always inherited, either passed down by the mother through mitochondrial DNA, or by both parents through nuclear DNA.
In autism-related Mt disease, however, the disorder is not typically found in other family members, and instead appears to be largely of the sporadic variety, which may now account for 75% of all mitochondrial disorders.
Meanwhile, an informal survey of seven families of children with cases currently pending in Vaccine Court revealed that all seven showed markers for mitochondrial dysfunction, dating back to their earliest medical tests. The facts in all seven claims mirror the case just conceded by the government: Normal development followed by vaccination, immediate illness, and rapid decline culminating in an autism diagnosis.
2) With 4,900 cases pending, and more coming, will the government concede those with underlying Mt disease -- and if it not, will the Court award compensation?
The Court will soon begin processing the 4900 cases pending before it. What if 10% to 20% of them can demonstrate the same Mt disease and same set of facts as those in the conceded case? Would the government be obliged to concede 500, or even 1,000 cases? What impact would that have on public opinion? And is there enough money currently in the vaccine injury fund to cover so many settlements?
When asked for a comment last week about the court settlement, a spokesman for HHS furnished the following written statement:
"DVIC has reviewed the scientific information concerning the allegation that vaccines cause autism and has found no credible evidence to support the claim. Accordingly, in every case under the Vaccine Act, DVIC has maintained the position that vaccines do not cause autism, and has never concluded in any case that autism was caused by vaccination."
3) If the government is claiming that vaccines did not "cause" autism, but instead aggravated a condition to "manifest" as autism, isn't that a very fine distinction?
For most affected families, such linguistic gymnastics is not so important. And even if a vaccine injury "manifested" as autism in only one case, isn't that still a significant development worthy of informing the public?
On the other hand, perhaps what the government is claiming is that vaccination resulted in the symptoms of autism, but not in an actual, factually correct diagnosis of autism itself.
4) If the government is claiming that this child does NOT have autism, then how many other children might also have something else that merely "mimics" autism?
Is it possible that 10%-20% of the cases that we now label as "autism," are not autism at all, but rather some previously undefined "look-alike" syndrome that merely presents as "features" of autism?
This question gets to the heart of what autism actually is. The disorder is defined solely as a collection of features, nothing more. If you have the features (and the diagnosis), you have the disorder. The underlying biology is the great unknown.
But let's say the government does determine that these kids don't have actual "autism" (something I speculated on HuffPost a year ago). Then shouldn't the Feds go back and test all people with ASD for impaired oxidative phosphorylation, perhaps reclassifying many of them?
If so, will we then see "autism" cases drop by tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people? Will there be a corresponding ascension of a newly described disorder, perhaps something like "Vaccine Aggravated Mitochondrial Disease with Features of ASD?"
And if this child was technically "misdiagnosed" with DSM-IV autism by Dr Zimmerman, how does he feel about HHS doctors issuing a second opinion re-diagnosis of his patient, whom they presumably had neither met nor examined? (Zimmerman declined an interview).
And along those lines, aren't Bush administration officials somewhat wary of making long-distance, retroactive diagnoses from Washington, given that the Terry Schiavo incident has not yet faded from national memory?
5) Was this child's Mt disease caused by a genetic mutation, as the government implies, and wouldn't that have manifested as "ASD features" anyway?
In the concession, the government notes that the patient had a "single nucleotide change" in the mitochondrial DNA gene T2387C, implying that this was the underlying cause of her manifested "features" of autism.
While it's true that some inherited forms of Mt disease can manifest as developmental delays, (and even ASD in the form of Rhett Syndrome) these forms are linked to identified genetic mutations, of which T2387C is not involved. In fact little, if anything, is known about the function of this particular gene.
What's more, there is no evidence that this girl, prior to vaccination, suffered from any kind of "disorder" at all- genetic, mitochondrial or otherwise. Some forms of Mt disease are so mild that the person is unaware of being affected. This perfectly developing girl may have had Mt disorder at the time of vaccination, but nobody detected, or even suspected it.
And, there is no evidence to suggest that this girl would have regressed into symptoms consistent with a DSM-IV autism diagnosis without her vaccinations. If there was such evidence, then why on earth would these extremely well-funded government attorneys compensate this alleged injury in Vaccine Court? Why wouldn't they move to dismiss, or at least fight the case at trial?
6) What are the implications for research?
The concession raises at least two critical research questions: What are the causes of Mt dysfunction; and how could vaccines aggravate that dysfunction to the point of "autistic features?"
While some Mt disorders are clearly inherited, the "sporadic" form is thought to account for 75% of all cases, according to the United Mitochondrial Disease Foundation. So what causes sporadic Mt disease? "Medicines or other toxins," says the Cleveland Clinic, a leading authority on the subject.
Use of the AIDS drug AZT, for example, can cause Mt disorders by deleting large segments of mitochondrial DNA. If that is the case, might other exposures to drugs or toxins (i.e., thimerosal, mercury in fish, air pollution, pesticides, live viruses) also cause sporadic Mt disease in certain subsets of children, through similar genotoxic mechanisms?
Among the prime cellular targets of mercury are mitochondria, and thimerosal-induced cell death has been associated with the depolarization of mitochondrial membrane, according to the International Journal of Molecular Medicine among several others. (Coincidently, the first case of Mt disease was diagnosed in 1959, just 15 years after the first autism case was named, and two decades after thimerosal's introduction as a vaccine preservative.)
Regardless of its cause, shouldn't HHS sponsor research into Mt disease and the biological mechanisms by which vaccines could aggravate the disorder? We still do not know what it was, exactly, about this girl's vaccines that aggravated her condition. Was it the thimerosal? The three live viruses? The two attenuated viruses? Other ingredients like aluminum? A combination of the above?
And of course, if vaccine injuries can aggravate Mt disease to the point of manifesting as autism features, then what other underlying disorders or conditions (genetic, autoimmune, allergic, etc.) might also be aggravated to the same extent?
7) What are the implications for medicine and public health?
Should the government develop and approve new treatments for "aggravated mitochondrial disease with ASD features?"
Interestingly, many of the treatments currently deployed in Mt disease (i.e., coenzyme Q10, vitamin B-12, lipoic acid, biotin, dietary changes, etc.) are part of the alternative treatment regimen that many parents use on their children with ASD.
And, if a significant minority of autism cases can be linked to Mt disease and vaccines, shouldn't these products one day carry an FDA Black Box warning label, and shouldn't children with Mt disorders be exempt from mandatory immunization?
8) What are the implications for the vaccine-autism debate?
It's too early to tell. But this concession could conceivably make it more difficult for some officials to continue insisting there is "absolutely no link" between vaccines and autism.
It also puts the Federal Government's Vaccine Court defense strategy somewhat into jeopardy. DOJ lawyers and witnesses have argued that autism is genetic, with no evidence to support an environmental component. And, they insist, it's simply impossible to construct a chain of events linking immunizations to the disorder.
Government officials may need to rethink their legal strategy, as well as their public relations campaigns, given their own slightly contradictory concession in this case.
9) What is the bottom line here?
The public, (including world leaders) will demand to know what is going on inside the US Federal health establishment. Yes, as of now, n=1, a solitary vaccine-autism concession. But what if n=10% or 20%? Who will pay to clean up that mess?
The significance of this concession will unfortunately be fought over in the usual, vitriolic way -- and I fully expect to be slammed for even raising these questions. Despite that, the language of this concession cannot be changed, or swept away.
Its key words are "aggravated" and "manifested." Without the aggravation of the vaccines, it is uncertain that the manifestation would have occurred at all.
When a kid with peanut allergy eats a peanut and dies, we don't say "his underlying metabolic condition was significantly aggravated to the extent of manifesting as an anaphylactic shock with features of death."
No, we say the peanut killed the poor boy. Remove the peanut from the equation, and he would still be with us today.
Many people look forward to hearing more from HHS officials about why they are settling this claim. But whatever their explanation, they cannot change the fundamental facts of this extraordinary case:
The United State government is compensating at least one child for vaccine injuries that resulted in a diagnosis of autism.
And that is big news, no matter how you want to say it.
David Kirby is the author of "Evidence of Harm - Mercury in Vaccines and the Autism Epidemic, A Medical Controversy" (St. Martins Press 2005).
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| posted by Allison on 03/08/2008 09:39 PM
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| OMG!!!!!!!!!! That is exactly what happened to Cody.He actually died in my arms and I brought him back.All the tests and everything. |
| posted by Lexi on 03/09/2008 05:05 PM
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